Showing posts with label Tiamat. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Tiamat. Show all posts

Tuesday, April 23, 2013

T is for Tharizdun and Tiamat

Yesterday I talked about the Devil as embodied in Satan.  As I mentioned I don't like the idea of using such impossible evils to kill (if it has stats it can be killed).  But near-impossible ones are fine.

I have talked about Tiamat a lot here.  Not just the D&D concept of her, but the ancient myths and what she means in my world.  She is the current "Big bad" in my kids 3rd edition game.  They began as just a small group looking into researching dragons.  In the process they discovered the rise of the old Cult of the Dragon (I am using what appeared in Dragon Magazine before it was went over to the Forgotten Realms) into a new threat.  The feel the only way to stop this evil from taking over the world is go to the source.
The twist I am planning is the artifacts I am having my kids gather up to summon Tiamat are also just what she needs to come into this world to rule it.  I am using ideas from the old Doctor Who serial "The Key of Time" and the Come Endless Darkness book by Gary Gygax (more on that book later).  They have gathered up all the relics they need; and these are true relics, they are the remains of dragons that are now "saints" in Tiamat's evil pantheon.   They are going to summon her using these relics and a few other items. Then there is going to be a big no-holds-barred fight on the Dragon Isles.
There are some parallels here with my last campaign/game "The Dragon and the Phoenix", but this one should be a lot bloodier.
Here are some of my relevant posts on Tiamat


Tharizdûn is closer to the classical idea of "The Devil" than Tiamat is.  Though I do recall at one point thinking that Orcus was the son of Tiamat and Tharizdun.  Not keeping that, but I might revisit it one day.
Unlike many of the other creatures, I have posted here Tharizdun was created whole cloth by Gary Gygax and expanded on in later books.  He is the main bad guy in the Gord the Rogue books including Come Endless Darkness (he is on the cover in fact).  In my games, he is god chained at the bottom of Hell and Asmodeus is his jailer still.  Though the millennia of Tharizdun whispering in his ear it is hard to say how much of the original Asmodeus is actually left.
He is hinted at in the T1-4 modules and then bits and pieces in S4 and WG4.  I think it would be very interesting to do the entire GDQ series under AD&D but instead of Lolth being the big bad, make her an unwitting pawn of Tharizidun.  Get the Shard of Pure Evil (from 4th Edition) so he can escape his prison and destroy the world.
Sure it is an awful lot like my Tiamat arc above.  But it works, and the stakes would be much higher.

Can't wait for my kids to fight these two!

Friday, April 5, 2013

E is for Eodemon

Eodemons are another "new" race of demons I am working on.  Eodemons are the "Dawn Demons" or Proto Demons.  These are the demons that were already old and evil and sulking in the Hells.  Unlike the "devils" that were once good and then fell or "demons" that are relatively new to the scene, the Protodemons were old and evil. Their motivations are often alien to mortals and other demons.  Their numbers are few, but each one is extremely powerful.  Many are worshiped as gods, or at least, dark gods.

These are not to be confused with the Eudaemons, or beneficial demons.  Also many believe that Lilith herself is an Eodemon, but this is something she denies.  Also some scholars use the more archaic form Eolim to describe these demons.  Not to be confused with Elohim, which are also servants of Good.

For my take on these demons I am taking really, really old myths.  The one that everyone knows is Pazuzu.
How do you know him?  He was the demon in The Exorcist.


Only five Eodemons are being detailed. There maybe more, but they have thankfully remained unknown.  As a group they are more powerful than the Baalseraph, but are too independent and chaotic to work to the same ends.

While I am connecting the Baalserasph Lords with the Deadly Sins, I see the Eodemons as representing a classical element.

Dagon: Lord of the depths. This Eodemon combines the worst aspects of fish, octopi, sharks and strangely mankind.  Like most Eodemons his form constantly shifts and rearranges itself to suit his need, environment or whim.  One constant is his large, dead looking eyes. Always described as the “eyes of a fish” or a “drowned man”.
His element is Water.

Leviathan: It is supposed that this is the oldest of all the Eodemons.  Leviathan is so ancient that even other demons seem in awe of “his” age and power.  It assumed that it is a he though there is no evidence to suggest either way. Leviathan exists only for one purpose; to feed.  Leviathan can be found in the Astral realms devouring entire worlds.
"He" represents the Fifth Element of Quintessence.

Pazuzu: The Lord of the East Wind is a demon of the skies. He appears to be a well proportioned athletic male human with bronzed skin. His head is a bizarre combination of human, dragon and hawk.  His double set of wings could indicate a semi-divine nature but Lord Pazuzu denies such things.  Lord Pazuzu says a lot actually, he is the most active Eodemon in the affairs of mortals.
He represents the element Air.

Tiamat: The Queen of Monsters and Primal Chaos.  Tiamat was once a primal goddess of creation. But she desired only to destroy.  She was cast out and was already old in the hells when the Baalseraph arrived.  Evil Dragons and evil monsters still revere her as their queen and goddess.
She represents the element Water.

Tsathogga: This great demon appears as some sort of titanic frog-like monster.  It appears to be at least 50’ long or as much as 75’. There is a vague humanness about this this demon, but it’s countenance is one of an evil frog. It’s mouth is filled with rows of sharp, shark-like teeth the length of a grown man’s  arm.  It’s body is covered in open sores where oozes pour out.   Tsathogga does not bother to attack mere humans and will summon 4-9 (1d6+3) Demodands loyal only to him. Tsathogga, when he does attack, will use his tongue to attack the nearest opponent.  Human cultists worship Tsathogga, but the Demon Lord cares little for humanity.
The Lord of Toads represents the element Earth (I know, not a great fit).

So a nice collection of different myths here.

Sunday, June 10, 2012

Tiamat on my Mind

Been doing some research on the end game of my kids D&D 3.x game and I have been thinking a lot about Tiamat.  The kids are going to fight her in the end, but I wanted something more than the big five-head dragon of the AD&D Monster Manual, and not exactly like the Takhisis of Dragonlance.


So I hit the "books".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takhisis
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tiamat (for the Forgotten Realms info)
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tiamat.html

And inspirational posts:
http://gorgonmilk.blogspot.com/2012/01/tiamat.html
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/05/percentile-systems-girl-voices-and.html
http://blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/2011/09/divinity-of-dragons.html


http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/2010/03/drow-should-be-lawful-evil-among-other.html
http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/2010/01/going-up-to-hell-cosmology.html
http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/2011/05/post-666.html
http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/2010/11/sohave-you-ever-killed-god.html


Well I also hit the real books too.

One thing I recall thinking up years ago was that Tiamat in the old myths was the personification of Chaos.  This idea was reaffirmed with me when I, like many others, dabbled in Chaos Math and Science (it was the 90s, all the cool grad students were doing it).   Tiamat is primordial chaos.   Well what is that in D&D?  Simple, the Abyss.  So I have placed Tiamat in the Abyss, but it is not-quite-the-Abyss.  Her realm is Tehom, the Hebrew word for abyss or deep.  It is also related to the Kabbalah, being one of the Qliphoth.  Tiamat and Tehom also are have etymological relations.

Zak even talks a bit about fighting Tiamat and the mytho-historical Tiamat near the end of his interview over at Penny Red. (1:20:00 or around there).

Tiamat and Lolth
In my games Tiamat and Lolth are strong allies (no, not like this). Mostly because I have effectively had them swap places; Lolth becoming LE and in Hell, Tiamat CE and in the Abyss.  But also because they have similar backstories.  Both were (are) gods. Both were cast out by male Gods to establish some new order.  I can see each seeing something of herself in the other, and not in a self-loathing way (Lolth in my world is full of self-loathing, no pun intended) but rather as solidarity.  Their views are radically different, but their plans for conquest do not conflict really.  So they see each other as an ally.  Not best friends or anything like that, but there is mutual trust built up over centuries.  They are evil, not stupid.   If I were to play this out then I would have an alliance between the Drow and a group of dragons.  Most likely the red dragons, like what the Githyanki do.  I might even revise that a bit and say it was a select group Drow that went to serve Tiamat and she in return had some dragons serve Lolth.  Of course they are spies, but everyone knows this.

Here is an odd entry, attributed to the Demonomicon that Lolth is the offspring of Tiamat and Alrunes, the Queen of Sorcery.   Not quite sure about that one really.  But I have conjectured that Orcus is the offspring of Tiamat.  That would give me a hook too.

Of course I had this evil thought of using  the Scales of War material for the last few adventures.

Just a little late night research.

Anything cool about Tiamat or Lolth I should know?

Thursday, March 1, 2012

Dragonslayers: An Epic Epic of Epicness

So after my Book of Vile Darkness enhanced version of S4:The Lost Caverns of the Tsojcanth, the characters all for the most part hit 20th level and frankly I don't want to stop.

So I am pouring over the Epic Level Handbook now.  This is not something I used back when I was play 3.x, and it has taken this long for the boys to get to this level.  I have some issues with it, for example the editing seems bad in places. But man this book is just full of great ideas.  Some of which would be great for Epic Level Play in D&D4 or 20+ level in D&D Bacic/BECMI.
Really it is kind of a fascinating book.  It takes the rules into places the original designers I don't think expected, but yet there is such an enthusiasm for it that it makes the reality of a 30-level D&D4 a no brainer.

They have not leveled up yet, they are still in the caves.  I am merging the 3.x rewrite of the LSotT with the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdûn.  I now have the temple far, far underground where the dengerate Norkers dwell and keep millennia old rituals alive to a God no one remembers.  There will be demons, monsters of pure chaos and all sorts of evil.  Maybe even a rogue Brain Collector.  Love those guys.

To keep the sense of evil, dread and most importantly fear, I am still going to use the Book of Vile Darkness (both the 3.0 and 4.0 versions) but I'll also include some elder scariness from the Epic Level Handbook too.

The idea here is to build to something big, apocalyptic even.  That is why I bought this thing.


The Mage Knight Apocalypse Dragon to stand in for the full Goddess form of Tiamat.  That is the 3.x era Aspect of Tiamat and the 4e Orcus.   I am not sure how powerful she is going to be, but I am expecting HP in the low 1000 area, at least 30-35 HD and enough magic the stomp a small city-state.  I want it to be so epic that the boys will tell their own kids one day.  Just like the time that my characters had to defeat Orcus in the original H4 Throne of Bloodstone back in that far off time of 1987 and that mystical land sages once spoke of, Southern Illinois.

But since I also want to make all the battles leading up to this one epic in feel I am also reading other's play experience with these two modules.

Beedo over at Dreams of the Lich House has a great post on his group's battle in the Temple of Tharizdun.  This is a great run down and shows that all in not quiet in this so-called Forgotten temple.  James of Grognardia gives us his retrospective as well.  What both bloggers offer me is something I already knew, but was glad to see it all spelled out again.  The Forgotten Temple is not a simple dungeon crawl. Sure it looks like one, but it isn't one. This is alien horror.  This is Lovecraft meets the Satan Pit.
There is no over ridding goal to this adventure.  This is uncovering a plot and then running the hell away. I'll give them chances to acquire some magic items, even face some ancient, eldritch evils.

If I ever do Tharizdûn it will have to be even bigger than the Tiamat battle.


Tharizdun. Now there is name.  You don't need to know anything else about this guy other than his name to know he is up to no good.

In Gygax's Oerth he is the next best (worst) thing to Satan.  He is the Source of All Evil, to borrow a page from Charmed.  He is the biggest baddie there is.  I'll take his "Satan" aspects and his "Thasaidon" aspects and maybe even pepper in a bit of Lovecraft for good measure.

Links I am currently reading for "inspiration".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forgotten_Temple_of_Tharizdun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharizdun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Ashton_Smith_deities#Thasaidon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaunadaur#Ghaunadaur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Evils
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tharizdun
http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tharizdun
http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elder_Elemental_Eye
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=968
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/11/retrospective-forgotten-temple-of.html
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/08/pulp-fantasy-library-dark-eidolon.html
http://ulmo.mux.net/greyhawk/tharizdun.html

Anyone else run an Epic level game?  Or take on the Temple of Tharizdun.

Monday, August 8, 2011

Gen Con 2011 Haul

I picked up:

OSRIC hardcover from the OSR booth.  Figured I should support the cause and I didn't have an OSRIC book anymore.

Call of Cthulhu 30th Anniversary Ed

DC Adventures Heroes and Villains

A bunch of the old Mayfair Role-Aids "Demons" books.  Four books and two boxed sets for 15 bucks. All still in their shrink wrap.
It's for 2nd Ed AD&D, but there are a lot of stats on the sheet (including ability scores) that all they are missing are skills and feats for 3.x.



And the Mage Knight Apocalypse Dragon to stand in for Tiamat when the Dragon Slayers battle her in the final battle of their campaign.
I spent more on this than I should have and more than my wife wanted me to, but I figure it is for the kids' last D&D 3 game so it should be worth it.


Shown here with Aspect of Tiamat and Orcus.  AoT takes up 3x3 squares, Orcus 4x4.  The Apocalypse Dragon, or in our game it will be the full manifestation of Tiamat, takes up 7x7.
It will be brutal.

The swag bag this year had magic cards, some True Dungeon tokens and a coupon for the Gen Con d6.  Though out of 4 bags we only got one coupon.

Game reviews later.

Tuesday, May 24, 2011

Post 666

I have reached a momentous milestone here at the Other Side.  This is my 666th post.  I feel compelled (by the Power of Satan!) to post about something devilish.

I have talked about Hell before and some of it's inhabitants and some potential inhabitants.  If I follow this logic then devils would be the ultimate foe for the elves.  Not that I don't mind this idea at all. But I think I might focus it a bit more.   Combine the story of Dante's Inferno, Milton's Paradise Lost and Lolth's shunning/betrayal and I can paint a pretty detailed idea of what Hell is in my world.

Hell is the ultimate prison for the fallen.  Gods, Angels and other powers are cast out and into hell.

Let's start with a couple of Goddess that give me some problems.

Tiamat is a Goddess and Queen of all evil dragons.  She has always been listed as having a domain on the first level of Hell.  I have never really liked that to be honest.  Tiamat is in Babylonian myth primal Chaos.  If anything she should be in the Abyss.  Using the new 4e cosmology that would place her in the Elemental Chaos, which is really the perfect place for her.  In Dragonlance her home was always called "the Abyss".  In my games I always called her realm Tehom, which means Abyss in Hebrew and is associated with the mythical Tiamat.  So she really has no place in Hell.  Who should replace her?

Lolth on the other hand is better fit.  Her story is more in line with the casting out of the Angels into Hell.  Though I am not sure I want her in Hell proper, maybe more of the Ante-chamber to Hell, near the Underdark. This would be similar to the first level of Hell that Dante claimed the Pagans went too.  So I am trading a giant dragon for a giant spider.   For a bit of tongue in cheek continuity I would make Tiamat and Lolth allies.  They have different goals and motivations, but I see them as felling they have a common history so if it benefits them to share an alliance, then they would. Lolth's realm is still called the Demonweb and she still has a number of demons in her employ.

Devils in my Game
Demons are easy.  They are evil, chaotic outsiders bent on destruction of everything.  Devils are much more complicated.  I say in my game Devils are only Fallen Angels.  That means there are a finite number of them and once they are gone, that is it.  There are a lot of creatures that are called devils, but most of them are demons pressed into service.  Since they have been forced into service by the Devils they have changed, they can evolve into greater forms.  Pit Fiends are those fiends that have reason up in ranks.  The True Devils still look down on them.

Since I started this post, Dreams of the Lich House posted a bit about using Satan/The Tempter in your games.  It is a good read.  It also ties in nicely with the Milton/Dante-ish cosmology I want to use for Hell.  I would keep the 9 layers.  The top most being the "Ante-Chamber of Hell" and the rest each ruled by an Arch Duke.  Also each Arch Duke is responsible for one of the Seven Deadly sins.

Layer Name Arch-Duke Deadly Sin
1 Avernus none na
2 Dis Dispater Envy
3 Minauros Mammon Greed
4 Phlegethos Belial Sloth
5 Stygia Geryon Wrath
6 Malbolge Glayssa Lust
7 Maladomini Baalzebul/Beelzebub Gluttony
8 Cania Mephistopheles Pride
9 Nessus Asmodeus *

Glayssa was given Lust, Asmodeus' old sin since he is now in charge.  His though is the sin of betrayal.
In the 4e cosmology Asmodeus was the angel guarding the prison that Tharizdun was held in.  Tharizdûn corrupted him and Asmodues and his angels all fell.  I have decided that Tharizdun is still chained, but the greatest deceit is that he is not where all the gods think he is.  He is in fact buried deep in Hell where Asmodeus taps his power. This is how he has been elevated to near Godhood.  Of course this might be Tharizdun plan to to trap Asmodeus in his thrall even more.


Chances are good that the Dragonslayers will run into the cult of Tharizdun sometime soon.  I just need something to do with them.

I am not planning on the Dragonslayers going to Hell anytime soon, so this all might be for nothing.